Daria Ryazanova: Designing through uncertainty and change

Pauline Bertry 0:13

Hi Darya, we are live. Welcome to the dance.

Daria 0:15

Hello.

Pauline Bertry 0:16

So nice to have you.

Daria 0:18

Hello, Pauline. Nice to see you.

Pauline Bertry 0:19

How is your Friday going?

Daria 0:21

Good, good. A lot of work and it's very hot here in Paris, but it's good, it's sunny. The the summer is here, so

Pauline Bertry 0:30

Yeah, I can relate to that. I'm in France currently as well, so I feel the same, the same summer.

Daria 0:35

Yeah, I think we're not very far away from each other so we can fill the the water.

Pauline Bertry 0:40

Correct, correct. look, Daria, it's really a pleasure to have you as a guest on the At the DEN podcast, because I've been looking for someone very special to bring the on the ground perspective from the agency and consulting work. And I know for the fact that you have actually experience with both. So it's a great honor that you accepted a conversation. And I mean, I know you for ages. So of course, I mean, it would be a bit unfair, maybe to ask you to tell your story, but to make it a bit more holistic for everyone who might be listening to the conversation. Would you please mind sharing your story around like the past, what are you up to now and where is the future? heading for you.

Daria 1:35

Sure. Sure, of course. I don't mind. so that's that's very funny because if you had told me like seven, eight years ago that I would be here sitting and talking about design, I probably wouldn't have believed you. because actually my career started away from design. so my first true job was at my kinsen company where you also worked for for a long time. consulting actually

Pauline Bertry 2:02

where we've met.

Daria 2:06

yeah exactly. I wasn't consultant at the time I joined the professional and development department and I had quite a hybrid role. I mostly was in charge of internal projects between internal communications and HR. I did a lot of event management, community management, and some other initiatives related to employee experience. So globally it was like internal marketing. And everything was quite straightforward so it was a good career. At the time I worked at Mackinsey CIS in in Moscow, Russia. And everything was quite smooth. it was great job, great people around me. But I was like 23 years old. I was very young. and I had this sense of curiosity and of adventure and I was like well Maybe I would change a country. And since I was speaking French for me it was quite natural to look at at France as my potential destination. And so this was really like a personal goal to to move to another country. This was not about like professional life. so I decided to to move. and I moved to France and I asked myself, well if I can change the country why can't I change the the job? and when I arrived

Pauline Bertry 3:23

That's the question I always, that's always the way I tell my story as well. So I

Daria 3:28

Okay.

Pauline Bertry 3:28

feel you.

Daria 3:29

Okay. Okay, great. and yeah, I arrived here and here I am like for for the last seven years I've been living here in France, in Paris. so I continued my my studies. I did a master's degree in digital project management where I also learned about design and a little bit about computer science as well, because I was like attracted by this digital world and I wanted to know more about it. and at the time I don't know if you remember you were my one of my first UX design mentors who inspired me a lot. so it really helped me to to start my new career path. I then continued as I first I started doing design in learning. I designed for learning solutions, learning experience, sometimes from scratch, sometimes using existing technologies. And this was not only digital experiences, this were also physical ones.

Pauline Bertry 4:23

medical.

Daria 4:23

And then yeah, and then naturally I switched to UX design. And my well my my recent experience was inside a design studio, which is part of a big French group called La Poste Group, which is a public sector and logistics company and which owns a lot of other B2B local products. so

Pauline Bertry 4:49

Yeah.

Daria 4:49

we as a studio we accompanied different product teams which were French, like really local B2B products.

Pauline Bertry 4:57

Yeah.

Daria 4:58

This was a very unusual experience because I'm like I'm not French basically. And this was a very Frenchy French company. So this was was

Pauline Bertry 5:08

So funny.

Daria 5:08

very interesting in terms of culture and in terms of way of working. And for like this year in the beginning of the year I joined another another company. I'm currently working in a product management consulting firm. where we accompany clients, different French these are mostly large French enterprises, like I don't know, Total, L'Oreal, or these can be also B2B startups like the fork or blah blah car so there are there is a very big list of clients we accompany so as you said I had have really these two different perspectives from the consulting consult from the consulting point of view and agency. So yeah,

Pauline Bertry 5:50

the studio.

Daria 5:51

yes, exactly. it was studio and agency. I don't know what's the real differences, but yeah. So

Pauline Bertry 5:57

Yeah.

Daria 5:58

I I really work in very different teams of very different design maturity. it was quite a rich experience because you see that Yeah, the the culture is not the same from one company to another.

Pauline Bertry 6:10

Yeah, I can imagine. But I mean, I'm curious to hear a little bit from your experience and from your view. What is your perspective on what's going on with the market right now? Because

Daria 6:25

Yeah.

Pauline Bertry 6:25

my assumption is that the market I entered like 10-ish years ago is very different from the one that we have now. And I would love to learn and to hear a little bit about like what you are observing, what you are seeing.

Daria 6:43

So to be honest, I don't have like exact research data. I can tell you from my

Pauline Bertry 6:47

Of course.

Daria 6:48

personal perspective. I think the market is tough. well it was tough the moment I entered into design, like it was

Pauline Bertry 6:57

Mm-hmm.

Daria 6:57

about five years ago. It was already tough. but today it's tougher. I don't know if you know what I mean.

Pauline Bertry 7:04

Yeah

Daria 7:04

I have quite a lot of friends around me who work in design who already senior or those who just are trying to land in their first design jobs and I think it's tough for everyone. and I think from what I see, well well, there are two trends. I think it's very tough to get the job, but at the same time I observe that there are a lot of offers around LinkedIn or Welcome to the Jungle, which is the French.

Pauline Bertry 7:30

No.

Daria 7:32

what platform for job search. So it seems like there are these two trends. It's it's there are a lot of offer, but it's very hard to enter. And I think that's companies have become much more demanding towards designers.

Pauline Bertry 7:43

Mm-hmm.

Daria 7:45

so we think all observe this evolution of of design from like you know UX UI design than to product design. And today it's more like AI builders, so we can talk about terminology later. But

Pauline Bertry 7:57

Yeah.

Daria 7:57

I think since the The job itself changed due to like the technological revolution which is which we're observing. I mean AI. so also the approach has changed and being designer today is not the same as being designer five years ago. So it's some maybe some people just didn't have enough time, enough resources to adapt to this to this change.

Pauline Bertry 8:19

Hmm.

Daria 8:19

which can create kind of frustration on the market.

Pauline Bertry 8:22

So I would love to deep dive in one of the topics that you mentioned. You said that the job of a designer now is different than the job of a designer five years ago. And I would love to ask you to elaborate on that. And the reason I'm asking this is because I think that's generally the trend that is Like all over LinkedIn, all over any professional website, like the job is changing. The designers are becoming obsolete. Cloud design just killed designers, et cetera. But I would love to learn like specifically and very tangibly on like day to day basis. What are the differences in the activities that you did as a designer like five years ago and that. you do as a designer now.

Daria 9:10

I think there are two important things that that changed. The first one is tooling, the tools the designers are using in their day to day work. And the second one is the role of a designer in in the team, in the company in general. So when it comes to tooling, well it's quite an obvious trend. We see that we we all started with sketch, with Photoshop. I even worked with PowerPoint slides to make to make screens. So that was very funny and usual. And well today we see cloud design that can create your slides or interfaces in in a couple of minutes or even seconds. And so yeah, this trend impacts the way we work because everything goes faster.

Pauline Bertry 9:59

Of course.

Daria 10:00

And what changes is that From my perspective, from what what I see, as a designer, I need to spend less time and need to less people around me to make decisions. I don't know. I remember the time when, you know, working on UX writing, which is a very touchy political topic, you should

Pauline Bertry 10:19

Yeah.

Daria 10:20

check every word, every sentence with a lot of people around you. And it could take sometimes hours just to confirm one text or some, you know, button labels. And today it just you can resolve this like in a in in seconds with with the AI, so you don't need as many people around you. and talking about the role the place of a designer inside a team of a company, before the designer was seen as an executor. So you have a task, you need a screen to create, and this is someone who creates the journey and typically drones. Well today what I see is that the roles in the in the team of protect a product a product team, the roles between PM, designer, and a tech team and developer can be blurred. and the designer can no longer be just an executor. It also has to to to consider about business dimensions, think about research and so there there are there are a lot of more the skill set has grown and I think that the the initial skill set of this craft this craft skill is becoming more and more obsolete. I wouldn't say that

Pauline Bertry 11:37

Hmm.

Daria 11:38

AI is killing craft this is not what I want to say but this is a very interesting point as well. we can deep dive later, but I think it's makes design more accessible for other profiles who are not designers by background, you know. so being a designer today means more and implies a different skill set.

Pauline Bertry 12:01

Hmm, interesting. I also, I mean, I know that you've been observing the evolution of this design industry, while also being in two quite different types of companies. So you mentioned a digital design studio and now you are in a consulting company. So I would love to... Kind of also hear a little bit of your like from the ground employee perspective around how, is the fundamental difference between those two worlds and how each of them is getting adapted to what is going on with AI.

Daria 12:43

Mm. Okay. to answer the first question, what's the difference? so the main difference is proximity with the client. so when I worked in this design studio inside a post group, I was surrounded by my peers. I worked mainly with designers and with creative people and we were more in this delivery approach. So we had an internal client who came to us and who had like I'd ask to, I don't know, create a new page or create

Pauline Bertry 13:12

Mm-hmm.

Daria 13:12

a new journey. And we accompanied him or her during this this this project. So it was more like project type of working. There were some product teams as well, but this was mostly project type of working. And this was a lot about delivery. And we were not in the client, like we didn't know the client context. So he came to us, we had

Pauline Bertry 13:31

Mm-hmm.

Daria 13:32

some Microsoft calls with him, Microsoft team calls, and we we didn't observe what what his his daily routine was. So we were very in the delivery. while in consulting, you are you are immersed into the client universe. You you see the constraints, you see how people work, how people think, and you can better seize what can be and cannot be done in in this context. So I think these are this is the main difference. It's proximity. And when you work in a design studio you have this opportunity like working with other designers is that you like you are always learning a lot from them. you have a lot of challenges, you have a lot of brainstorm internal sessions. So you you learn permanently about design and about the way of working as a designer. While when you are in a with a client who knows nothing about design and you are like the only designer in a team, it's it's a completely different experience. You are one-to-one with the people who you need to you know, to vulgarize what design is, and to explain the methodology. So it's a different approach. And talking about AI, I think that I wouldn't say that companies that working in an agency or in a design studio or in a consulting firm is different. so everyone is aware about the place of AI and the place of AI in the ways of work. everyone is trying to adapt. But I think it's easier when you're in a design studio or in a small team of designers, it's easier to

Pauline Bertry 15:09

Mm-hmm.

Daria 15:10

ad to adopt new new ways of working. maybe when you're in consulting because as a consulting firm you might have access to the tools, but you're not sure to be able to use all of them when you work with the client. Because I don't know,

Pauline Bertry 15:23

Hmm.

Daria 15:25

talking about France and this is I think this is maybe very particular about French people and French culture in general. But from what I observe, again I didn't work in other countries, but I'm witnessing that people are very reluctant towards innovation and towards AI topics. And you might face clients, people who are not very confident and who are not very open to to innovation. And

Pauline Bertry 15:51

Yeah.

Daria 15:51

so it implies a different mindset, a different way of working. So I don't know if it answers your question, but yeah, I think the way you adopt and the way you use AI in your work is not the same in working within with a client or working in an agency.

Pauline Bertry 16:06

Yeah, I mean, I can definitely relate to that. And I mean, I want to reassure you that's not only French. I think I

Daria 16:14

Mm. Okay.

Pauline Bertry 16:16

did work in a lot of countries and this is very much international. But there is one another element where I would love to kind of to go. I would love to understand a little bit the difference in terms of how it felt for you as an employee in terms of like learning and growth and kind of getting new skills or maybe trying new things between those two different worlds. So what are the things that you did have in agency, but you don't have in the consulting anymore and vice versa. And what helped you to kind of. make your learning and your growth successful in those different paths.

Daria 17:03

I think in my experience I didn't have that much difference in terms of learning because the cons

Pauline Bertry 17:08

Okay.

Daria 17:08

the consulting firm where I'm working now has quite the same rituals among designers. So we have so when I worked in a design studio I was surrounded by designers, so we had one big tribe, designers tribe, and it was very easy to to communicate, to organize like internal challenges and workshops. In a consulting firm we do have the same rituals. Just what changes is that I'm closer to the client, that I'm working in a client environment, you might not always have the time to go there and it's more like when you're working in a design studio like you're in this bubble, in this creative bubble, you're inside and it's quite fluid, quite fluid to to share experience. When you work in a consulting firm, and when you work in consulting, I still have the same this access to learning and to this design rituals where we can share experience and have this peer-to-peer learning. It's just maybe it requires a bit more effort because when you work with the client, you don't always have this time to to go to this to these instances. But well to be honest I think both give you the this opportunity to grow and I from from my personal perspective I don't see a lot of difference in terms of access to to learning and to career growth. I think that the career path is more structures is more structured in in consulting than in design studios and agencies. But you still evolve and yeah, you still have this opportunity to grow. I don't have that much difference.

Pauline Bertry 18:46

Okay, I like it. And then maybe a little bit of a different kind of dimension for you when you are like thinking about your past seven years of experience. What were the elements that made your growth distinctively easier within whatever organization? you were part of at

Daria 19:14

Mm.

Pauline Bertry 19:14

that time. So what are the three things that you could remember saying, like, look, that was fundamental for me to be able to get to the point where

Daria 19:26

Mm.

Pauline Bertry 19:26

I am today.

Daria 19:28

Yeah. I don't know if these are three elements, but the first one

Pauline Bertry 19:33

You can say five.

Daria 19:36

the the first one I see which is very important in design, since it's traditional historically it's a c crafts skill being

Pauline Bertry 19:45

Yeah.

Daria 19:45

a designer. is mentorship. So this is this is very important. being able to to talk to s someone senior who can adapt the way you work and who can give on time feedback and and and yeah and mentor you. this is especially very very important in the very beginning. and I think this mentorship should be part of I mean any any mature product team. well mentorship feedback as well. but feedback well you know it's a very big topic. There are different types of feedbacks and it's must be a real system. But For example, in this consulting environment, feedback is a is a is a system

Pauline Bertry 20:37

Mm-hmm.

Daria 20:38

which is provided timely, it helps you to structure you and feel that you are evolving, even if these

Pauline Bertry 20:45

Mm-hmm.

Daria 20:45

are little steps but you can feel that you are progressing. So I think mentorship feedback, these are two very, very important. and I think the third one I'm thinking right now is recognition. But I I'm not sure this is only for designers, but it is for any employee. But

Pauline Bertry 21:01

Yeah, yeah, I mean, of course.

Daria 21:03

maybe designers these are people who you know considered to be creative people and there is this creative process. You have an idea and you then you materialize it. You are very some designers are very attached to what they are doing. So recognition is very important and recognition from users, from final users, from people who use your your product.

Pauline Bertry 21:26

Okay. And I mean, you seem to be mentioning a few elements around the environment where you are now that are well structured. So can you kind of name a few things that are making your journey there as an employee, like great and distinctive comparing to the previous experiences that you had?

Daria 21:48

yeah, one of the things I already mentioned is the feedback system, which is very,

Pauline Bertry 21:53

Yeah?

Daria 21:54

very strong in in the current company I'm working in. it's also very strong management system is the I think well it relies maybe to any to any fields, but well I I already experienced some bad management situations and having managers who take ownership of what they are doing and feeling that you are part of the team that protects its interests is very important. you will be always faced with people, you know, with people who are angry because of their nature, be who are I don't know, chaotic and whatever. And feeling that you are part of a strong management team. for me personally, makes me feel much more much stronger and more confident.

Pauline Bertry 22:48

Mm-hmm.

Daria 22:49

so I think like feedback management, like very basic things, but these are the ones that make even uncomfortable work feel much more confident.

Pauline Bertry 23:02

I see. What makes like a great, you're mentioning about like, a strong management team. So what makes someone a good, or like what makes a management team, a strong management team for you.

Daria 23:22

you know, for me a good manager is someone who is a person who knows that when he or she is absent the work can be done your team. So you you structure the team to the point that you you are confident and that you can go away and finish your work like at five at five PM and be calm in the evening. So it's I think it's what makes a good manager is make people feel they are at the team.

Pauline Bertry 23:49

Mm-hmm.

Daria 23:50

and feel that being trustful also. because well micromanagement is kind of an anti example, you know, being trustful and I think also being able to resolve difficult situation when it comes to to work conflicts Yeah, and I think when when it comes to difficult situations, about workloads, someone who is able to like clearly understand what is the scope and what is not the scope, and just

Pauline Bertry 24:24

Mm-hmm.

Daria 24:25

to give you the right direction, you don't need to to to resolve problems in in in the place of your of your employees. You just just need to give a good direction. Sometimes just saying that this is this is your scope and this is attention, this is not your scope. that's enough to help a a person to to go further because while working in large enterprises you're often faced to the situation the where there are a lot of people, a lot of decision making, everyone once has their own word to say and an

Pauline Bertry 25:04

and an opinion.

Daria 25:06

opinion and you need to listen to everyone and Everything is important right now, just giving the right direction the direction, saying these are your stakeholders, this is your direction, this is not your direction is enough. It's like the person who clarifies like the the map, you know? It's just nipping

Pauline Bertry 25:23

Yeah, yeah,

Daria 25:24

snipping and just saying you go here, you don't go here. And and really that's enough for for you. Don't you don't sometimes you don't need to to more. Just just just giving the right direction. For me the people who are able to do this and who are able to defend the interest of the team during some personal conflicts makes you a good manager. And also good sense

Pauline Bertry 25:49

No, I...

Daria 25:49

of humor. This is very important.

Pauline Bertry 25:51

And also, sorry.

Daria 25:52

A good sense of humor. This is important otherwise we it will be very

Pauline Bertry 25:54

A good sense of humor.

Daria 25:56

annoying.

Pauline Bertry 25:57

my God, you couldn't work with me. I have such a bad sense of humor.

Daria 26:00

no, no, no.

Pauline Bertry 26:04

I like this answer. I mean, I now just kind of, I cannot not ask you this question, but how do you think this co-creation and the collaboration between the design team or like the creative team? and the management is evolving now when AI is part of the

Daria 26:27

Mm.

Pauline Bertry 26:28

equation. So how does it feel for you?

Daria 26:31

Well okay, I think I got your question. I don't know if it's because I'm gaining inseniority or maybe because of the tools evolving, but I suppose that when you you talk to management is mostly about some you know, some personal thing. I know not personal but about some soft topics like how to

Pauline Bertry 26:50

Okay.

Daria 26:52

how to approach this person, how to deal with the situation. Because well I remember the time when I had like instances with my manager, with my with the senior colleague to maybe look into the methodology or to watch the screens. But now today I don't feel like I need someone to validate what I'm doing. I might

Pauline Bertry 27:13

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Daria 27:15

ask for an opinion but it's not that necessary because as I already said like

Pauline Bertry 27:19

Mm-hmm.

Daria 27:20

with AI I can iterate quickly and it's kind of I can create a coach an assistant who will review my design. It's quite enough for me.

Pauline Bertry 27:29

Mm-hmm.

Daria 27:30

to to arrive to a pretty good del delivery. and for me manager is becoming more like your like your coach, like a a human who is coaching you more in terms of communication, of how you can resolve some conflicts at work, and less about like hard scale subjects. So this I think this is one of the of the trends.

Pauline Bertry 27:53

I think there is one question where I would love to kind of as a last topic for our conversation to cover. I would love to get your thoughts on like the future of design industry and the digital product industry. So from where you stand currently in your career, from your experience, cetera, where do you think we will be in the next five years?

Daria 28:19

I don't know where we will be in the next year because things are changing so fast. I think we're witnessing like a very significant technical technological revolution.

Pauline Bertry 28:31

No.

Daria 28:32

we maybe n not that aware of where we are going. but I do believe this is something really crazy. This will be a very big revolution. which will shift the way we work. It will also shift like socio economic hierarchy. talking about design, so the the current trend that I think this will it will continue is that the roles between different profiles are becoming a blurring.

Pauline Bertry 29:00

Mm-hmm.

Daria 29:00

we already see a developer who can do design or a PM who can do design and who can develop and vice versa. So the roles are a blurring. And we we I think we will still have our own expertise. So we'll there will be profiles with strong design expertise, with strong PM expertise, with technical expertise. But I think what is changing what is crucial is that every part of of the product team I think should be able to understand every stage of the product process be it design be it

Pauline Bertry 29:40

Yeah.

Daria 29:41

roadmap creation be it development or business dimension so everyone should be available about all these tapes and being familiar with what makes a product team a product work and and what we will experience is that I think we will maybe less I think if we're talking about like five years, because five years is yeah, three five

Pauline Bertry 30:09

Yeah, I mean, you can talk about three years. It's okay.

Daria 30:12

years. yeah, because I think three for five years we are witnessing already this arrival of AI builders.

Pauline Bertry 30:21

Mm-hmm.

Daria 30:21

so there might be a trend towards the like the fusion of different roles and becoming an iBuilder, someone who is doing like research and who is shipping the products like very fast. and I think another trend that in in this in this context what can be interesting is like finding your own specialization can be an industry

Pauline Bertry 30:47

Mm-hmm.

Daria 30:47

specialization, it can be skill specialization specialization in terms of maybe you are closer to technology and you like to code or maybe you are more a research person. So so you might you should be able of doing everything. Maybe

Pauline Bertry 31:02

Yeah.

Daria 31:03

not understanding from everything from A to Z, but understanding all the steps and being like able to do it at least. and then having your industry specialization or skill specialization. so this is what I'm observing right now. But

Pauline Bertry 31:20

Yeah.

Daria 31:20

I I I do believe that things will drastically change in the upcoming five years and we are at the beginning of kind of a human machine revolution and this will be not the same interactions, not the same ways of working, not the same approaches and yeah.

Pauline Bertry 31:38

Yeah. But then I mean, same, you are giving me the, the, the, the tips. I'm not able not to follow up on them, but what do you think, like, for example, now the company where you are currently, or like the past company where you spent quite some time, what are the like tangible steps they can make to help you and your peers prepare? for this upcoming shift? Like what, what is that? What do you need to get to this point that, that you are mentioning where you are like super comfortable with each part of the process. You have all the right skillset to get there. You have all the right knowledge, et cetera, et cetera. What would be needed from, from your company to, to help you get there.

Daria 32:29

I think what's important is investment in learning.

Pauline Bertry 32:34

Mm-hmm.

Daria 32:35

So we are already witnessing that some skills and some professions are becoming obsolete. And this is a normal I mean, normal trend because there is technological revolution and we witnessed it across the history. So when cars arrived it replaced people who rode on horses, you know. So there there were a lot of shifts in in in in the work. at work and we're experiencing it now and I think this the company as well as the government of the country are responsible for providing enough like resources, enough time as well for people to adapt to these trends. And in

Pauline Bertry 33:17

Mm-hmm.

Daria 33:18

the context of a of a company, this is time for learning and being able to balance between work and learning, find the the slots dedicated for learning, dedicated for Yeah, for experiencing and testing these new tools because well for me it's quite like obvious that I need to do this learning and to follow the trend, but I see that people who are staying in large enterprises like for years, well they don't have this perspective. They are just stuck in this routine work

Pauline Bertry 33:56

Yeah

Daria 33:57

They are doing the same things for years and this is very well this is a bit terrifying because yes it's dangerous

Pauline Bertry 34:06

dangerous yeah

Daria 34:09

because things are evolving very fast and if you don't adapt, but you you can always adapt by yourself. It's also the it should be the team spirit, the company spirit to to to be this to pursue this adoption and people need time and because we are human we're not like machines, machines are evolving very fast, but we we we're still human and we need to need this time and this support to to adapt to these trends. So this is time and resources and being able to find this this balance between work and and learning is is very challenging.

Pauline Bertry 34:48

Yeah, I can relate to that. Amazing. Any closing thoughts for all of the consulting agency service teams out there?

Daria 34:58

Yeah, maybe I think depending on the on your company, you might have not the same people working inside. I mean usually in agencies and design studios you might have more Gen Z and Millennials, while in large enterprises and big corporate companies you will also have to accompany boomers, people who might be less at ease with technology. And so I think what's important is to to really to understand who are the people working in your company, w what is their mindset, what is the like the you know, what is the vibe, what is the culture, and being able to to adapt this progress, this evolution according to the rhythm of of your company. because while

Pauline Bertry 35:55

I like it.

Daria 35:56

Innovation is great but it's doesn't always fit the the rhythm of innovation doesn't always fit the rhythm of of your team, of your of your company, even if there is like how do you say a desire to to to to move forward but being able to understand Who are the people, what is their psychological type, how they work, is important to to integrate changes because very drastic changes can be very harmful for some for for some employees. and it can create frustration and fear. so finding the good balance and making things change progressively is important. But in some companies,

Pauline Bertry 36:47

Yeah.

Daria 36:48

drastic changes are good. I mean there are very young teams. they're testing and learning every time. So you must really understand who are the people you're working with, what is their mindset to to to make good transformational decisions. Well I hope that was

Pauline Bertry 37:04

I love it. Thank you so much. I love this insight.

Daria 37:09

I hope this was interesting and I don't know if you have many any other questions but it was

Pauline Bertry 37:15

I mean, I have many other questions, but I mean, we will keep it for the next episode. All right.

Daria 37:21

Okay, so much.

Pauline Bertry 37:24

Thank you, Daria. was very nice talking to you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Daria 37:27

Thank you, Blaine. Bye bye.